Catherine Elise Dumont: It is very important that older people of the world have the opportunity to speak about their lives and the necessity and obligation of having an International Convention.

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Welcome.

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This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast.

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Elder Women, older Women and Grandmothers on the Move.

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What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series.

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Have you ever thought about how human rights plays an essential and meaningful role in our older age?

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Well, you're in the right place.

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You're listening to Age with Rights and Dignity 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world.

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These committed champions will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older Persons into being, for you and for me, no matter how old we are.

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Now Join the movement and raise your voice.

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Go to the Age Noble Human Rights Day 2024 blog to find out more that is A-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dot com and sign the global petition for the UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons.

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I'm also excited to introduce you to two wonderful guest interviewers, younger women who are committed to these issues and will be joining me in this series to interview some of our esteemed guests Faith Young and Kira Gowenis.

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Thank you for joining us.

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Enjoy this special initiative.

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Faith Young and Kira Gowenis, thank you for joining us, enjoy this special initiative, and my thanks to Margaret Young, the founder of Age Noble, for bringing this opportunity to us to hear from these important guests who promote the human rights and the dignity of older persons the world over.

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Hello, my name is Kira and I'm a guest interviewer on today's Wisdom at Work podcast.

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I'm currently a university student studying psychology, with plans to specialize in gerontology.

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I care deeply about supporting the mental health and rights of older adults, so I'm really looking forward to speaking with our guest today.

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Forward to speaking with our guests today.

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Catherine Elise Dumont has been working with and for older people since age 18.

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A common theme throughout her 27-year career is her passion for supporting older people and overcoming the vulnerabilities that come from social isolation and loneliness.

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Her journey started in France, but her roots are now Mexico.

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In 2012, she founded Amigos de los Mayores, or Friends of the Elderly, with a small space in a parish for older people to meet and gather.

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Today, the organization offers connections and community through 11-day centers in the state of Morelos, in the heart of Mexico.

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This work on the ground is not the only space where Catherine pursues change to better the lives of older people.

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With her academic background in psychology, law and gerontology, catherine teaches and imparts her knowledge supported by lived experiences.

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She hosts a Mayor's Club radio program every Tuesday by for and with elders.

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She's active in national and regional associations and she advocates for the human rights of older people and a UN convention for these rights at the United Nations.

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Today, catherine will tell us more about her work from the lens of the right to be free from neglect and abuse in older age.

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Joining us from Mexico City, she'll be speaking in English, which is, impressively, her third language.

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It's a testament to her dedication and skill, and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to hear her insights.

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Catherine, thank you so much for joining me today.

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I'd love to start by learning more about your journey.

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What sparked your interest in this work and how did it shape the path that you've taken since?

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Yes, I began to be a volunteer in a French association the name is Petit Frère des Pauvres and the other names in English is friends of the older persons now, and I visited elders in situation of social isolation.

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It was very, very hard in France, in Paris, because Paris is a big city, a beautiful city and nobody knows that the elders people are dying alone.

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Until the pandemic period, but before the pandemic period it was in Mexico to do international solidarity, volunteering.

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And doing the international solidarity volunteering, I do the constatation that there are nothing for older people in Mexico.

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All the polity is on the kids and teenagers and nothing for the elders.

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And I had the experience in France with my volunteers, with the elders.

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Then I speak with Father Abel in the parish and I say we need to do something for the elders because everybody thinks in Mexico in this time that the elders was very happy with the family and good, and no, it's not.

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Then I, we, we am, we begin like that.

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At the beginning we have only four people and now we have 450 people in 11 day centers in the Moeller state.

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It's a state near Mexico City, then in the center of the country.

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You spoke a bit about volunteering with older adults who are experiencing social isolation.

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What other forms of elder abuse have you personally observed in Mexico?

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As I know, social isolation is only one example of the many different forms.

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The physical abuse yes, I saw it with people who are accompanied, but it's not the principle Really really is emotional and psychological abuse and really really against the woman.

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Why?

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Because the woman, the situation of the woman before it was very hard and the older women used to receive emotional and psychological abuse, but they don't know that it's an abuse against them.

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It's an abuse against them because for the childhood, the teenager and after, when she married with her husband, they receive emotional and psychological abuse, but it's an invisible abuse.

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It's an abuse that for them is normal, it's a normativity in her life.

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It's very hard to speak with them.

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They say no, I have a little space, who I receive older women and I am very, very happy when they say they say no.

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Now I do something for myself, because all my life I do for the, for my parents, for my brothers, for my husband, for my child, but I forget completely my one life.

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And now I do something for me.

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Now I love me.

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Now it's very, very important because it's a submission of the woman, not only with the man but for the woman all their life.

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Then when they arrive in the elder wood they do the same system.

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Oh, okay, yes, my son, and it's very difficult.

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We have economic abuse, patrimonial abuse, when they stole the house, the document of the house, okay, the house, the document of the house, okay.

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And they say, oh, mommy, I will take care of you, but please give me the document of the house, okay, my son Okay.

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And the son receives the document of the house and after that, two months, three months, they put the mother in the home cage and they disappeared.

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It's many cases like this.

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Or we have the situation that now more and more elders in Mexico send candies, send small things to have money.

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Candies send small things to have money Because the son and the daughter say go in this place, in this street, and you will stay doing all day long to send, and I saw that in Mexico.

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I saw that in Mexico that they go with the parents.

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Parents can work very well in place with the candies, and more and more.

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Before, when I came in 2007, no, but now yes, and it's like a traffic, it's like illegal labor but, other parents.

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It's like a traffic, it's like illegal labor.

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But older parents are very, very afraid to have no longer contact with children, with sons or with grandchildren.

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Then accept everything they're very afraid.

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So there is the law on the rights of older persons, and Mexico has ratified the Inter-American Convention on the Rights of Older Persons, though older people in Mexico are clearly still not free from this neglect and abuse.

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Before we talk, about why, in your opinion, that might be and what you think can be done.

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Do you mind sharing some information on what the Inter-American Convention is?

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The Inter-American Convention is a super legal document who was created in 2015 with the Organization of American States in Washington DC to protect because the word of protection is in the title and it's very, very important to protect the human rights of the older peoples.

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To protect the human rights of the older peoples, because in Latin America the population is aging and is not very protected for the law or for the decrees of each country, then it's very important that they have a legal document, supra-legal document, up the constitution of the national law to protect the human rights of the other people.

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Do you mind sharing a little bit about the work that you did to get the Inter-American Convention ratified?

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I did confidences before to sign and to ratify the Inter-American Convention and every confidences that I did.

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I spoke about the Inter-American Convention, the need to sign and to ratify the convention, but the problem is it's only, like I said, and my country in France, only at the people who know.

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The problem is to speak with the people, with the other person who doesn't know.

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People who live in the countries, people who live completely alone, don't know.

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Do you have any thoughts on how you can make people know about?

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it.

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I think that the more people I don't know if you know about the telenovela Yep On the TV set and I think that the Inter-American Convention will be in a telenovela.

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Yep on the tv set and I think that the inter-american convention will be in a telenovela, it's true, it's great idea um and um.

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actually, katherine, if you don't mind, I just want to pause here for one second.

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For those who may not know, telenovelas are serialized dramas that are able to reach millions of people across all demographics, especially everyday individuals, and what's fascinating about telenovelas is they're able to rise above barriers like age or income to ensure that critical messages resonate with a wide audience.

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So they're essentially a drama-filled TV show, but have the ability to weave important societal issues into their storytelling, which makes them so impactful.

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And that's why it's such an interesting thought and a really creative way to think about making the Inter-American Convention more accessible.

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So I'm sorry for cutting you off, catherine.

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You were just talking about the Inter-American Convention and it being more accessible, if you want to pick back up from there want to pick back up from there.

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I think that we need to go down the Inter-American Convention in really economic class vulnerables with their language, with their understanding.

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I think that is very important now to adapt, not to adapt the document because the document is good, but to adapt the situation with hapers.

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It's important to make more accessible the international convention to the elders and to the son and daughter of the elders.

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But the problem not all, of course, but many sons and many daughters have a compartment, of course, but many sons and many daughters have a compartment a behavior very, very sad hard and bad against balance.

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Okay, yeah, so how do you think having an international United Nations convention on the rights of older persons could help protect older people from the kind of neglect and abuse that you've been talking about, so they can fully enjoy their rights and also be included in society?

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I think that's a big, big difference.

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Because I have a friend who works with older people.

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But my friend has other friends who work with kids, with child, and they say to me that the fact that her friends work with the child, they have a protection, international protection, more with the international convention for the protection of the human right of the child, because the international convention is stronger than Mexican constitution, because it's an international convention.

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Then my friend who works with older people said to me that when the world, and of course here Mexico, will do the things mentioned inside of the international convention for the human rights of the older people, then no institution will say I don't know, I do what I want.

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No, no longer, you can do what you want.

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You need to obey, you need to do that the international convention do.

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The difference with the inter-American convention is that it's not the same height.

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I think that the international convention will be stronger, will be really stronger.

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But I think that it's very important that now from now, we speak about the Inter-American Convention.

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Why?

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Because when we will have an international convention, mexican people, whole lot of people, mexican people will say, ah, okay, yes, I understand, we have the Inter-American Convention and now the International Convention.

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Okay, because it will be informing.

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Okay, the question here is to inform, to inform the population, because the generation of older people it's changing here in Mexico.

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Before the older people were very quiet, very silent and quiet, didn't know about the human world.

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Now the new generation of older people is more informed about what's happened in the world, then it's very different.

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It's not the same generation.

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For me, the 80 years people to 19, one on one, it's a generation.

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And the 60, 70 people, they know to use the new technology, they know about Internet, then it's more informing and then they know that they have human rights with forces.

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But many people who live in the country, who don't live in the city, it's more without information.

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Then we need to go in every part of Mexico to speak about the human rights of the older people, because if we do that only in the Mexico City or in the biggest cities of Mexico, we put out a very large part of older people.

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Our mission is to go to the counties, small counties, to speak about that.

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Then I hope really that we will have the UN Convention and of course our job when we will have the UN Convention is to communicate of the UN Convention in each state of Mexico and, like I said to you, to be more accessible for the understanding to the other people, and I hope that in Mexico one day I don't know, one day we will an institution completely dedicated to the other people's very strong.

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I think that the change, like everything in Mexico, we will arrive from the community to add on to what you're speaking about, I know that you attended the human rights council session back in 2023 where the topic of elder abuse was discussed and advocates for older people from around the world were present.

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Can you share any reflections on your experience there and what stood out to you?

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Look, I know that in several countries there are child assemblies when they speak about the human rights of the child, but I don't.

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But I think that when they speak about the situation in the UN Human Rights Council, I think that it's very, very important to have a panel of the older people of the world and to give them the opportunity to speak about their life, about the necessity, the obligation to have international convention.

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Then really and we the most appreciate, about the meeting with Argentina representative, very, very good meeting.

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Then we'll speak about that.

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But I think that we need an assembly with all the people who decided about their human rights, really.

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And do you mind sharing any final thoughts that you may have on the importance of the right to be free from abuse and neglect and how, of course, it ties into the broader human rights are abused, or?

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neglected in their life.

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They can't provide about the other human rights.

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I'll give you an explanation.

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I take the example of an older woman who all along their son abused about her in the way of emotionally Okay.

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And then this woman, this older woman, feels very bad.

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How can this woman say, okay, I feel very bad, but I will participate, I will go this afternoon to participate in the community meeting.

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It's not possible, okay.

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Or a woman who received hurt from the husband of the son and said, okay, my husband hurts me, but this afternoon I will be to do a activity.

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Action, it's not possible.

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Then I think that we need to begin to fight the abuse and the neglect and the violence against the older woman or older people in general.

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You understand me, because if you fight at first this form of violence, you can't do the other forms of the protection of the human rights of the other people.

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Then, at the first end, fight about the hurts, the psychological hurts, emotional hurts, economic abuse, sexual abuse and other.

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And this is the first and after.

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I remember that when I got in 2019, the first section about why we give reflections it was about education, the education for the older people.

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But how a woman who suffers of violence every day can think about okay, I will be in the high school, because when I was a teenager I couldn't go to the high school.

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No, it's not possible.

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We need that the older people don't have problems about abuse on English to provide to enjoy the other human rights.

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You understand me.

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Right.

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Do you mind speaking a bit more on how older women are being left out of this conversation of abuse?

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I think that you know that the next Monday is the day of the elimination of violence against women.

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I think that it's very, very important to speak about the violence against older women, because every time people in general think that women are only child, teenager, young people and women who can have a baby, but they don't think about the older women.

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Then I think it's very, very important.

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We will do a campaign.

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I belong to WhatsApp group with gerontology woman, gerontologist woman, and we share about the campaign of each one, okay, of this group.

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Then I think it's very important that the older women say okay, I am living this situation, I am living in the situation of violence, I am living a situation of abuse.

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As a first, it's very important that older people, women or men, recognize the situation of the abused and the needless where they are.

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But because I can imagine that the person who harbors, who hurts older people, they say oh, yes, I am committing an abuse now.

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No, okay.

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Then the first that other people recognize because, like I said before, for many other people now it's normativity, it's something normal about the diary, about the life.

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Then I think that it's very important that the same older people recognize that the situation of their life is a situation of abuse, of the negligence, when they recognize the population in general and more.

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The geontologists, the lawyers, the political people say, okay, go to see us and we will help you.

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But the first is that all the people recognize, or if they can recognize, that the psychologist say the situation that you have is a situation of abuse, the situation that you have is a situation of neglect.

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And then the same people, the same older people, say, oh, you're white.

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I didn't recognize this situation before.

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But now that you explained to me that if my husband speak to me for this way, this is my kids, this is my son or my daughter, this is an abuse, this is in Negles, okay, then I think that this is the first step and very, very soon after, to recognize from the other people the situation of abuse of Negles, then the population, mexican population, needs to have the services and the recourse to help the other people.

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And the services and the recourse it will be easier to obtain if we have the international convention, because international convention say to the Mexican government you must to adapt your law and your institution with my international convention thank you so much for sharing your insights on this topic and just in general.

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I really have appreciated you taking some time out of your day today to speak with me.

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I've learned so much from you and I appreciate your passion around this very important topic.

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Older persons are very, very lucky to have you advocating for them.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much and I am at your disposal when you want.

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Okay, I hope you take care.

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Okay, take care.

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Bye.