Frances Zainoeddin: "Do not go backward on the rights we gained as younger women! As we age we have to keep an eye on the future, and the continuum of rights from cradle to grave."

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Welcome.

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This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast.

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Elder Women, older Women and Grandmothers on the Move.

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What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series.

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Have you ever thought about how human rights plays an essential and meaningful role in our older age?

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Well, you're in the right place.

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You're listening to Age with Rights and Dignity 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world.

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These committed champions will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older Persons into being, for you and for me, no matter how old we are.

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Now Join the movement and raise your voice.

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Go to the Age Noble Human Rights Day 2024 blog to find out more that is A-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dot com and sign the global petition for the UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons.

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I'm also excited to introduce you to two wonderful guest interviewers, younger women who are committed to these issues and will be joining me in this series to interview some of our esteemed guests Faith Young and Kira Goenis.

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Thank you for joining us, enjoy this special initiative and my thanks to Margaret Young, the founder of Age Noble for bringing this opportunity to us to hear from these important guests who promote the human rights and the dignity of older persons the world over.

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Today I have a really wonderful guest to introduce you to.

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Ms Frances Zinedine left Australia in 1970 to work at the United Nations in New York, initially in the Population Division of the Department of Economic and Social Affairs and ended her career 31 years later as Deputy Budget Director of the United Nations Program Planning and Budget Division.

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Upon her retirement, frances joined the NGO community to further promote the ideals of the United Nations.

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She has a specific interest in and passion for gender, women's rights, aging and older people's human rights.

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Her knowledge of the United Nations system has been particularly advantageous to civil society organizations, ngos that participate in deliberations in intergovernmental meetings.

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Frances was the former vice chair of the NGO Committee on Aging in New York, the current co-chair of the subcommittee to promote a convention at the NGO Committee on Aging in New York.

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She also represents NGO Committees on Aging as an ex-official member of the Garup Steering Group.

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She's a representative of the International Federation of Aging to the United Nations in New York.

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She's a representative of Seroptimus International to the United Nations.

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She's a key participant in establishing the stakeholder group on aging, as a member of the major groups and other stakeholders recognized by the General Assembly as representative of NGOs involved in sustainable development issues and was actively engaged in the United Nations intergovernmental negotiations leading up to the adoption of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, ensuring inclusion of the concerns of older persons.

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A member of the NGO Committee on the Status of Women and Frances was also a board member of the Grey Panthers in New York.

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Frances, it's wonderful to have you with us today.

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It's just a pleasure to have this conversation.

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It's a pleasure for me, too, to meet you and to discuss this very important topic.

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You know, I wanted to start, frances, by going a little bit back in time before we talk about the Convention on the Rights of Older Persons, because I'm completely fascinated by your illustrious life and I wondered where does it all start for you, frances?

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There's a trajectory and there's sort of a logic I can see to the kinds of things you've been involved with around human rights and women's rights, and now older persons and older women's rights, but where does this start for you?

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How did you decide this was life's work?

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Yeah, my mother was a woman's rights promoter, I mean from a family point of view as opposed to out there in the public.

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She always told us to be self-sufficient, to be independent, and I actually remember her saying to me and my sister marry as a last resort, and if you do get married, always leave yourself a back door.

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She was always very concerned about you know what happens when tragedy strikes.

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For instance, you know, I was born during World War II and my father was born during World War II and my father was killed in World War II, so she was left with three kids and so she had to take care of herself and her children.

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So she was quite outspoken.

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But I didn't really start paying attention formally until I worked at the UN.

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And I came to the UN in 1970 and believed in its ideals, and over the years, I mean, there was sexism in the UN as well.

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I mean that's another story.

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But after I retired from the UN, which was now almost 24 years ago, I joined the NGO community civil society, because I believed in the ideals of the UN and I wanted to continue, primarily to keep my gray cells moving and be active, and so I, first of all, I joined the Retirees Association of the UN, tyrese Association of the UN, and through that organization I met other organizations out there promoting human rights, women's rights, health issues, a whole lot of things.

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I was always interested in women's rights, but into older women's rights was another little step that I had to take.

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Right.

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I'm interested in that because I left the UN also about 20 years ago.

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You know it was women's rights and it was young women.

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It was really a question of invisibility or just an unknowingness and a lack of thinking about it.

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Certainly as soon as older women were mentioned, or when there were older women involved in different meetings or issues, everyone embraced the thought or the knowledge that older women had a lot to contribute.

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Just nobody talked about it.

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It wasn't part of the lexicon around not just rights but around women in development, Absolutely.

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For you, was it stepping into your older years that suddenly made you realize that there are rights that are just not being paid attention to and that they're just this isn't part of the conversation, or was it something else that brought you to it?

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Well, throughout history, women have been ignored anyway, right, never recognized as having a voice or contributing to anything of note or anything at all.

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We're just in the background, in the kitchen, raising children and never giving credit for anything.

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And that's you know 2000 years.

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Yes.

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And at the UN.

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I could see that, because of the different intergovernmental bodies which discuss various economic and social issues, human rights issues and also in terms of the staff, there were rules.

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At the UN there are two categories the professional women, who are at a higher level, and then there's support staff, now the ones in the professional level, as they say for staff coming from overseas, the non-American staff, you know, from Australia, europe, latin America, wherever.

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They were entitled to home leave every two years.

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And the men were entitled to home leave every two years.

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But, believe it or not, the men were entitled to home leave and could take their families, and the UN paid for their families but not the women families, and the UN paid for their families but not the women.

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And there was one Chinese woman whose father signed the charter.

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She was a lawyer and she fought for this.

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How come that men get those benefits but not women?

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And another thing was that, as far as the pensions were concerned, when men retired and after they died, their wives would get half the pension.

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That was part of the international civil service package, right, but for women, after they retired and they died, their husbands didn't.

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Of course, when we fought and got that.

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You know some of the men would snigger and laugh, ah, but it's the men who benefited in the end.

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So there were things like that.

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I mean, I've sat in a conference room and because the staff always had to be at the meetings, you know, ahead of time so that we could be there to assist the delegates and the ambassadors and whatever, and you know, a couple of us would be sitting there and then the men, the delegates, come in and they see, you know so few of their colleagues there.

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But the first one will walk in and say, oh, nobody here.

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I mean we're there, and it's sort of little things like that.

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You know and you notice, and it happens time and time again.

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And I must say I absolutely welcomed the remarks that Ambassador of New Zealand had made one time and I love telling the story.

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She was given the job of coordinating some negotiations, was given the job of coordinating some negotiations and she had walked in and one of the delegates, from a man, said to her oh, would you get us some coffee?

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Without knowing that she was the coordinator, of course.

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Anyway, she said, not a problem, what would you like?

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So she went out and got there were three men sitting there, got the coffees back and then she sat at the head of the table and started the process.

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Did the men?

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They were shocked and at the end they actually went.

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And of course we were sitting near the head of the table where she was conducting the negotiations and the delegate who actually asked for coffee came up and apologized and said I'm terribly sorry.

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And she said don't worry, maybe tomorrow you'll get coffee for me.

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And you know it was just wonderful and gosh, you know that was so dignified.

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I learned a lot from that.

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So those are sort of some examples of my years at the UN.

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But afterwards I actually attended Commission on the Status of Women meeting at one of the side events and it was about older women and I heard about the plight of these older women in India and the woman who was telling us this that she was from India and she said during the pilgrimage to the Ganges every year, so often a lot of families leave the grandmothers behind in the steps of the temples so that the priests there would take care, because the families didn't have enough money to take care of the older folks.

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I was so upset by that and of course here am I learning about these things, you know.

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So the person who was actually conducting that side event she had asked could somebody take notes and I thought, okay, I'll take some notes.

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And then we got talking afterwards and her name is Pat Brownell, who is a professor at Fordham University, and she brought me into the subcommittee on older women within the NGO Committee on Aging and the rest of history.

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I guess how I started focusing on older persons as well, following the establishment of the Open Ended Working Group on Aging, which was established to discuss the feasibility of having an international legal instrument to protect the rights of older persons For me also, obviously older women, even though the convention to eliminate all forms of discrimination against women, there is a special recommendation that deals with older women, which is non-binding.

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But yeah, so the combination of that and the discussions that went on and which have completed, but still no decision by the Open Ended Working Group on Aging whether or not to have a convention, still continuing my pursuit of protection of human rights well, and I want to talk about that, assuming that most people listening to this don't know too too much about it there is cdov, and then there's the convention on the rights of persons with disabilities, of course, as you say, has this general recommendation 27, which is on yes and then.

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So there are these what they call human rights instruments, these conventions that speak to or could speak to the conditions of older women and things that are relevant to older women's rights, either directly or through other conventions.

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Obviously, all issues affect older women, but for this question, I just want to sort of help people to understand why do we need a convention on the rights of older persons?

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Yeah, that's a question that many governments are asking.

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Right, it's very similar.

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Older persons a special group that is ignored, overlooked are barely counted.

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Older persons are usually seen as a burden on society.

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When they reach a certain age, they are of no value.

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Their views are not taken into account.

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Just as an example, violence against women and girls the data goes up to 49.

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Yes, and girls the data goes up to 49.

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Yes, not beyond right.

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Because why Up to 49,?

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It's considered the reproductive years, when you don't have any more children.

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You're thrown out to pasture, so to speak.

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When sexual and reproductive health and rights are discussed, again, the cutoff date is 49.

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Beyond reproductive age, women's health issues are ignored.

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In terms of health issues, it really should be the biology of a woman.

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You know a woman ages, but she can have hysterectomies, mastectomies, cancer, and nobody pays any attention.

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But mostly older persons are viewed as beneficiaries of medical rehabilitation, if there are benefits or social protection.

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We want older persons to be viewed as having rights, that they are rights holders, like the child is a right holder, like a person with disability is a right holder.

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So that's the key issue that we want older persons to be considered as rights holders because they have been a neglected group.

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So it was pushed by Argentina actually since the beginning of time of the UN, back in 1948, during the adoption of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, argentina had actually asked what about old age?

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But by the time they had discussed the draft and about to adopt it, it was decided that they didn't need to include anything about age, even though they included issues about gender, ethnicity, etc.

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Etc.

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As you know, and they passed the issue over to the Economic and Social Council to discuss.

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And aging issues have been discussed by the Economic and Social Council since time immemorial, the Economic and Social Council since time immemorial.

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But Argentina kept pushing and there was a major conference on older persons in Vienna, followed up by another major conference in Madrid, which came out with the Madrid Plan of Action on Older Persons which, much like the Beijing Platform of Action, it was a blueprint for programs but not discussing the rights.

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And many governments have to report and do report every five years on what they're doing for older persons.

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But certain governments Argentina and a number of Latin American countries felt that it was necessary to have a human rights instrument which was mandatory Once you ratify it, you have to report on it and governments monitor it by the Human Rights Council or by the committee that set up.

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That's another reason why some governments don't like human rights treaties.

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They like to be shamed and blamed.

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But the idea of having a convention is also to codify the rights of older persons in one single document, set international definitions and minimum standards of practice, which is what we want.

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Yes, and UN Women.

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We are in touch with UN Women constantly.

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I think they've just come out with a report, women in Development report, and older women are mentioned.

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But just as an aside, we've asked them about the data.

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We're usually up to 49, as always, and when we've checked with them they said, well, we don't have data.

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And we've said but mention it that you don't have data.

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We exist.

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Surely statisticians should.

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It should be obvious to them, right?

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You would think I remember doing the work on HIV and AIDS how stunned I was that so many countries, including our own, were simply not collecting any data of women over 50.

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So it was as if older women didn't have HIV.

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And if you don't have any statistics, then you have no programs, you have no funding and you have no policies.

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Absolutely.

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It starts with the data.

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So I completely agree with you and I think that's one of the most compelling arguments, I think, around the convention certainly in terms of women, but definitely in older persons generally which is it sort of shifts the conversation from something that would be a benign request or a benevolent thing for a government to do a good thing or a good policy to being contextualized as a human right.

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And you've played many different roles, as you say.

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You worked at the UN, you've been part of many different groups the Optimists, the Grey Panthers, the International Federation of Aging.

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I mean, you have all of these affiliations, and so one of the questions that we want to ask you, which I thought was very interesting, was sort of who do you think needs to be involved in terms of a movement to bring about a convention?

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I think we've not done enough to include everyone else.

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You know, persons with disabilities need to be involved.

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Women need to be involved.

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Indigenous people need to be involved.

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Everyone need to be involved.

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Indigenous people need to be involved, everyone.

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Ngos in the health sector, in the education sector, they all need to be involved.

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But in New York, for instance, these NGO committees that are set up to facilitate NGOs with ECOSOC status to participate in UN deliberations, there's one on the status of women, ngo committing on the status of women, which is very, very active, and there's one on NGO committing on aging, on health, on indigenous, on education, intergenerational.

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So we've reached out and we're actually trying to include them much more and asking them to include us as well in their discussions, right?

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So yeah, it's absolutely essential.

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We need to include the youth.

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They're the future.

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Old, and I'm fighting for my granddaughters.

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I don't want them to be fighting for the same things that we're fighting for now, right?

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I mean, how many years, for goodness sake?

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I mean there's a report out by the Secretary General that says, in terms of gender equality, it's going to take 286 years for all countries to provide gender equality.

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I mean that's outrageous.

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It is 300 years.

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I mean we've had 2,024 years of gender inequality already.

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Inequality, that's right.

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Oh, my goodness.

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It doesn't seem unreasonable to be impatient at this point.

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Yeah, that's a piece around us too right, which is continuity and memory and lived experiences.

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Yeah, I mean not just health, but not being able to have a bank account without a man signing for you.

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I'm not.

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My renewal of my Australian passport in the 1980s had to be signed by my husband.

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I mean what I mean?

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That's ridiculous.

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And I remember it was so difficult for my sister to get a loan to buy a house because she wasn't married and she said I'm living on my own, I'm responsible for my own life and my finances, I'm not going to be in debt like a married couple might be in debt, you know, with children and school and whatever.

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I mean I'm not a risk.

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And she had to get a man to sign.

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Outrageous, I mean.

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That's not so long ago, you know.

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No it's not, and I think this is really interesting because there are so many older women activists and advocates at the national level who have been fighting the good fight for a long time around girls' rights, women's rights, older persons' rights, older women's rights.

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And sometimes there are these international meetings, united Nations meetings on climate, on women.

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There are different fora that are created by the international community where it's really quite remarkable when women come from the national level where they've been doing all of this advocacy and they can really speak to.

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What are the constraints, what are the challenges?

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why do they need to be human rights and not just lovely things you're asking the government to do for you, and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how important it's going to be for a convention on the rights of older persons to have older people from the national level, who are sort of experts in how to negotiate rights within their own countries, to be talking about what they're experiencing and having that feed into the process.

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Well, I think there are many people who do good in their communities, in their families, and there are some people who look beyond their own lives, in their own families, and they look at what's happening at the national level, right at my country level, and then there are people who look beyond our borders to other countries that we are thinking about, our kindred spirits of women elsewhere.

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So at the international level, with the creation of the United Nations at the international level, what usually happens is that if things don't work too well at national levels, then international cooperation comes into play to set standards, to talk about the rights of women, the rights of children, climate change and all of that.

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So the UN provides a mechanism for all countries to view human rights in a similar way.

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But the basic human rights and the dignity of the human person must be respected, and that's what we're all fighting for.

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Right, and these are international agreements on how governments should be treating every individual.

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So we want to push for that From cradle to grave, as we say.

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We don't want to leave anybody out at all.

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I think the CEDAW absolutely made a huge difference.

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No question, no question.

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Governments had to look at women in a totally different light, and the same with persons with disabilities.

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My goodness, what a difference that convention made about their right to work, their right to health.

00:24:28.753 --> 00:24:31.528
I mean it made such a huge difference.

00:24:31.528 --> 00:24:37.192
I mean we look at the persons with disabilities in a whole different light.

00:24:37.192 --> 00:24:53.430
Right, it was amazing, the CRPD, and I think we feel the same about a convention for older persons, you know, to be looked at differently, that we are of value, we're not just tossed out into pasture.

00:24:53.980 --> 00:25:06.236
And for many women, for instance, where they've not been allowed to go to school and then without education they couldn't get the work that they should have to be independent.

00:25:06.236 --> 00:25:09.723
And then they get old and they don't have social protection.

00:25:09.723 --> 00:25:13.332
So it's one whole lifetime of discrimination.

00:25:13.332 --> 00:25:17.868
And then when their husbands die, they lose their property rights.

00:25:17.868 --> 00:25:26.412
And it's that sort of thing that international treaties bring to the attention of not just governments but everyone.

00:25:26.412 --> 00:25:33.414
You know people suddenly realize, gee, I have rights and I think that's really important.

00:25:33.414 --> 00:25:42.694
It's always about the dignity of the human being and it's sad that we need to have pieces of paper to recognize that.

00:25:42.694 --> 00:25:50.246
And it's actually been very interesting to listen to the debates on these issues.

00:25:50.246 --> 00:25:54.240
You wonder whether it's the individual who's speaking or is it the government?

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:58.375
Who's speaking on this, and what do you think about your grandmother?

00:25:58.696 --> 00:26:07.374
I think when you start to talk about a convention, just even the talk about a convention forces you to stop for a moment and consider what's this about.

00:26:07.374 --> 00:26:17.028
But, having said that, 14 years is a long time to be talking about it, and so I think this is interesting for people to know about and understand.

00:26:17.028 --> 00:26:18.833
Which is 14 years.

00:26:18.833 --> 00:26:23.099
This wasn't to come to a conclusion to say absolutely there should be one.

00:26:23.099 --> 00:26:25.669
It's 14 years to discuss whether there should be one.

00:26:25.669 --> 00:26:27.604
They weren't crafting a convention.

00:26:28.286 --> 00:26:29.367
No, they were not.

00:26:29.367 --> 00:26:31.432
It was whether to have one or not.

00:26:31.432 --> 00:26:35.207
The feasibility is the word of a convention.

00:26:35.207 --> 00:26:43.145
And only last year that they came up with recommendations on moving forward in terms of options.

00:26:43.145 --> 00:26:56.452
It was recognized, finally, that the existing treaties don't cover all the aspects of the rights of older persons, that there were gaps on health issues, on education issues.

00:26:56.452 --> 00:27:00.969
The idea was to what can be done to fill those gaps.

00:27:00.969 --> 00:27:03.594
So they came up with a number of options.

00:27:03.594 --> 00:27:15.031
The first option was, yes, we need a separate treaty, legal instrument to do this, and of course this is all part of intergovernmental negotiation, as you know, right.

00:27:15.031 --> 00:27:24.891
And then there were other recommendations that may be okay, we'll look at CEDAW and we can provide a protocol to be added to that.

00:27:24.891 --> 00:27:36.165
Or we can look at CRPD and provide a protocol which is, in a sort of addendum, legally binding, as is the convention itself, that would deal with older persons.

00:27:36.165 --> 00:27:48.615
And then there are other recommendations that, okay, the Universal Periodic Review of Human Rights per country, that they should report more on older persons.

00:27:48.615 --> 00:27:57.353
You know, hardly anybody reports on older persons that we would try and force governments to report, but of course that's not going to take place either.

00:27:57.353 --> 00:27:59.881
I mean the impact of a treaty, a convention, is huge.

00:27:59.881 --> 00:28:00.301
It really is huge.

00:28:00.301 --> 00:28:02.226
It changes government's perspective, individuals' it really is huge.

00:28:02.226 --> 00:28:07.919
It changes government's perspective, individuals' perspective, business perspective.

00:28:07.919 --> 00:28:09.560
I mean everyone.

00:28:09.681 --> 00:28:16.453
So there were the naysayers who don't view human rights as important.

00:28:16.453 --> 00:28:30.101
And then there are those who say we already have laws, we already have legislation, we already have programs, we don't need to have another piece of paper.

00:28:30.101 --> 00:28:33.348
And then there's some who are sort of sitting on the fence.

00:28:33.348 --> 00:28:40.393
And then there's some who say well, we have a program of action, the Madrid International Plan of Action, already.

00:28:40.393 --> 00:28:47.413
So it's been a very, very difficult road to convince our governments to have this.

00:28:47.413 --> 00:29:01.634
So now we've got to this stage when we're expecting the Human Rights Council in Geneva to review all of this, to consider all these options and to come up with a recommendation.

00:29:01.634 --> 00:29:10.553
So a new round of advocacy will be taking place in in Geneva as opposed to in New York.

00:29:10.553 --> 00:29:14.403
So it's still a lot of heavy work to be done.

00:29:14.403 --> 00:29:17.009
It's a question of convincing.

00:29:17.590 --> 00:29:23.579
I often found working on CEDAW that it's not so much that people were cynical some people are cynical but it wasn't so much cynicism.

00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:37.394
It was that it was so important to make the connection between this pieces of paper that float around the UN and how does that connect to real people living in communities and how does that improve their lives.

00:29:37.394 --> 00:29:39.848
How do we make those connections real for people?

00:29:49.059 --> 00:29:56.056
number of treaties that set out what governments are required to do to protect the rights and dignity of the human person, and we have to call governments out.

00:29:56.056 --> 00:29:58.623
You know, for children, education.

00:29:58.623 --> 00:30:01.593
It's a right of a child to have education.

00:30:01.593 --> 00:30:05.746
And we're also saying how about lifelong learning?

00:30:05.746 --> 00:30:15.269
Why is it, after you get older that you are not entitled to have any education, with all the technology that's taking place now?

00:30:15.269 --> 00:30:19.144
I mean, what about education for older persons?

00:30:19.144 --> 00:30:30.856
And if there's violence against women, for instance and we know all about that why are we stopping only for those of reproductive years?

00:30:30.856 --> 00:30:38.375
There's violence and abuse of older women, of older persons, and that's always overlooked.

00:30:38.375 --> 00:30:39.738
It's incredible.

00:30:40.519 --> 00:31:01.509
When we're talking about rights, I think we hope individuals will say I think we hope individuals will say you know, it's my right to have long-term care, it's my right to have various health care, it's my right not to be abused, whether it's financial abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse.

00:31:01.934 --> 00:31:07.281
I think we have to think about each other's rights and I'm fighting for my granddaughters.

00:31:07.281 --> 00:31:13.458
You know it's their right to have education, obviously, and if they're not getting it, you know I should be suing the government.

00:31:13.458 --> 00:31:31.439
I don't know whether you're aware, but a group of older women in Switzerland recently sued the government for not complying with the environment, the climate agreement, in terms of protecting their health, and they took it to the European Court.

00:31:31.439 --> 00:31:35.107
And the European Court has decided against the government.

00:31:35.107 --> 00:31:38.241
You know for them to say they can sue their government.

00:31:38.241 --> 00:31:42.377
It's a human right for them to be protected from climate change.

00:31:42.377 --> 00:31:46.364
I mean, that's going to have huge repercussions around the world, right?

00:31:46.364 --> 00:31:50.009
So I think people need to understand that.

00:31:50.009 --> 00:31:56.359
Why are we electing these people if they're not protecting right and there's a flip side to it.

00:31:56.421 --> 00:32:17.428
Right Because one of the things that I've been so motivated by, inspired by which is it's quite extraordinary what older women bring, not just our families as grandmothers or loving elders, but and Frances, I think you embody it as well what I notice is that older women, the more active they get in their communities around different issues or even at the international level.

00:32:17.935 --> 00:32:31.211
I've had so many interviews where women have said to me I don't have anything to lose, I don't care what people think about me, I'm not worrying so much about how I look or whether I'll embarrass my children, whatever the thing is that was holding you back or limiting your voice.

00:32:31.211 --> 00:32:38.846
And so I see a lot of older women as just extraordinarily powerful voices for really radical change and thought and inquiry.

00:32:38.846 --> 00:33:05.002
And so to me, there's a flip side around the struggle for the convention, which is we need to provide rights to older women so that we can unleash their contribution and see them as vital contributors to our communities, as they are into our societies, and the more we think of them as sort of beneficiaries of largesse or the kindness of the state or the kindness of the community, we're really missing out actually.

00:33:05.364 --> 00:33:07.407
Yeah, and for people to listen.

00:33:07.407 --> 00:33:09.500
But who are in power?

00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:10.462
Men?

00:33:10.462 --> 00:33:12.615
That's the problem, certainly.

00:33:12.615 --> 00:33:17.286
I mean, still, the majority of delegates are men.

00:33:17.286 --> 00:33:21.904
At the UN, we still haven't had a woman Secretary General.

00:33:21.904 --> 00:33:24.208
Maybe next time, maybe this time.

00:33:24.228 --> 00:33:25.154
Yeah, maybe next time, maybe this time, yeah.

00:33:25.976 --> 00:33:35.836
But I think what bothers me is that women spend their entire life doing things for others, the family.

00:33:35.836 --> 00:33:45.502
Or when women started going out in the workforce, we were saying now they're going to have two jobs right, one in the family and outside.

00:33:45.502 --> 00:33:48.627
You know, so it's just been tough.

00:33:48.627 --> 00:34:01.106
And what you were saying about the grandmothers in Africa who took care of their grandchildren because the parents have died from AIDS, the grandmothers totally overlooked.

00:34:01.106 --> 00:34:05.759
They've saved a whole generation and yet they've been overlooked.

00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.683
And it's difficult, difficult for us.

00:34:08.324 --> 00:34:28.228
For me, I'm lucky, I have a pension, I have housing, I have food to eat, and in countries, for instance, they've done studies on this when governments have actually provided some sort of monthly subsidy to give the older persons and guess who?

00:34:28.228 --> 00:34:36.105
The older person spends the money on Education for the grandkids or food for the family, not for herself.

00:34:36.105 --> 00:34:44.583
You know, when you read about this and you think, the pure generosity of women.

00:34:44.583 --> 00:34:50.530
It's amazing, absolutely amazing, and it brings tears to one's eyes.

00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:52.400
You know what they have to struggle.

00:34:52.400 --> 00:35:08.630
There was this wonderful story of this group of older women in Nepal and there was some money that was given to them, actually by the NGO Committee on Aging to give literacy courses to these older women.

00:35:08.630 --> 00:35:16.525
I mean the freedom that just that little bit of education gave these women, because they didn't have the chance as a young person.

00:35:16.525 --> 00:35:18.402
I mean it was incredible.

00:35:18.914 --> 00:35:21.784
And if it were the state's obligation, if it were the government's obligation?

00:35:21.844 --> 00:35:24.581
Exactly the obligation to do it.

00:35:24.581 --> 00:35:26.360
Yes, it's systemic change.

00:35:27.195 --> 00:35:28.782
That's when you really see the shift.

00:35:28.782 --> 00:35:32.083
There's a lot to overcome to get to this convention.

00:35:32.335 --> 00:35:39.048
As you said in the beginning, they first have to decide to have a convention before drafting a convention.

00:35:39.048 --> 00:35:41.579
So we have these steps.

00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:44.306
We're watching the Human Rights Council very closely.

00:35:44.306 --> 00:35:50.097
It's likely that they will address this in March next year, 2025.

00:35:50.097 --> 00:36:07.306
So there will be quite a lot of work being done between now and March to line up the supporters, because they're supposed to review the recommendations that were made by the Open Ended Working Group, the last session this year, which will take us to the next step.

00:36:07.306 --> 00:36:12.184
So there's a lot of advocacy that will have to be done between now and March.

00:36:12.264 --> 00:36:13.327
It's not much time.

00:36:13.608 --> 00:36:24.724
Not much time and some urgency, too right, because you can't say you know, there's sort of different groups of people the children, women, persons with disabilities.

00:36:24.724 --> 00:36:29.074
It was all recognized that they had their rights violated.

00:36:29.074 --> 00:36:31.679
I mean not just ignored but violated.

00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:38.378
And now there's another group, growing group of people of older persons.

00:36:38.378 --> 00:36:43.789
It's an aging world that they have had their rights violated as well.

00:36:43.789 --> 00:36:46.681
So that's why we need a convention.

00:36:47.264 --> 00:36:48.367
What are the core messages?

00:36:48.367 --> 00:36:55.797
Sort of advocacy points about older women's rights, going into this before March, and how can people follow along Frances?

00:36:56.298 --> 00:37:01.487
My two favorite words are to be vigilant and persistent.

00:37:01.487 --> 00:37:06.041
You know, we do not want to go backwards, please.

00:37:06.041 --> 00:37:11.099
We do not want to lose the rights we've gained as younger women.

00:37:11.099 --> 00:37:14.106
We don't want to lose them as we age.

00:37:14.106 --> 00:37:22.628
If we are concerned about our progeny, our grandkids, we should think about this.

00:37:22.628 --> 00:37:29.688
We do not want them to lose their rights to health, to education, whatever, as they age.

00:37:30.195 --> 00:37:37.313
We have to keep an eye on things that worry us long-term care, palliative care.

00:37:37.313 --> 00:37:38.755
What is being done?

00:37:38.755 --> 00:37:44.804
You know, we take care of young people children, babies, toddlers.

00:37:44.804 --> 00:37:47.427
What happens to them when they get older?

00:37:47.427 --> 00:37:50.860
We have to think about the continuum of life.

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:54.608
We have to think about from cradle to grave.

00:37:54.989 --> 00:38:03.646
We all have a future, whether it's five days of future, five months of future or five decades of future.

00:38:03.646 --> 00:38:10.579
I'm 83 and I feel I have a future and I'd like to have that future protected and we have to think about that.

00:38:10.579 --> 00:38:33.757
The future belongs to everyone and governments are responsible for providing programs, care, education, whatever we've been talking about until the day we die die, and they shouldn't forget that.

00:38:33.757 --> 00:38:36.322
Not up to 49 or 59 or 69, until the day we die, and we have to keep our eye on all of that.

00:38:36.322 --> 00:38:40.655
There's a sustainable development goal that talks about prevention of hunger.

00:38:40.655 --> 00:38:47.851
Older persons actually appears in one of those targets, but what is being done about that?

00:38:47.851 --> 00:38:49.596
Hunger of older persons?

00:38:49.596 --> 00:38:51.519
Nobody pays any attention.

00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:57.539
Hunger of children, yes, and rightly so, absolutely, but what about the older person?

00:38:57.539 --> 00:39:03.358
We're talking about the worth of a human being, ilana, from beginning to end.

00:39:03.898 --> 00:39:23.655
Wherever we see some inequity, whatever bothers us, whether it's climate, environment, whatever it is latch onto it you know, if there are people who hear you and who just want to continue to know about this, where do they go to find out more about what's happening at the Human Rights Council, what's happening with older persons' rights and prevention?

00:39:23.896 --> 00:39:38.021
Well, of course, different websites, but one organization is the Global Alliance for the Rights of Older People and that has a wonderful website that has links to everything that you ever want to know about older persons.

00:39:38.021 --> 00:39:46.710
And at the UN, the Human Rights Council just Google Human Rights Council and the Commission on the Status of Women at the UN.

00:39:46.710 --> 00:40:05.188
So there's a lot going on at the UN, and at the UN they also have a section on civil society participation, so we can look at that as well to see where civil society can participate and try to make a change.

00:40:05.188 --> 00:40:10.358
I think even if people just work at the local level, it's a good step.

00:40:10.358 --> 00:40:24.179
It doesn't have to be international, but if you're thinking a bit beyond the local community level, definitely look at the UN, and there are different regional commissions in different parts of the world.

00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:33.804
So final word, frances if the convention gets drafted and it gets passed and it comes into being, what can people look forward to?

00:40:34.416 --> 00:41:19.619
I would imagine a world where all human beings are respected, including the older people, that older people are not left out to starve, that they're not tossed out on the street, that older persons feel that they have a right to receive care and programs from the government because the government is doing a good job, that they will have decent pensions, that they will be able to work and not be tossed out because of their age, because many people have to work to survive and so many older persons work in the informal sector.

00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:22.525
They don't have pensions, they don't have savings.

00:41:22.525 --> 00:41:35.911
I would like a convention to be able to show the world that everyone, including older persons, including those who reach the end of their lives, that they matter.

00:41:35.911 --> 00:41:41.608
I think that's very important, that everybody matters.

00:41:41.608 --> 00:41:49.501
The fact that older persons are considered a burden you know they're about to die anyway, so why waste money on them?

00:41:49.501 --> 00:41:53.302
I want that attitude to disappear.

00:41:53.302 --> 00:41:56.016
Yeah, yeah, it's.

00:41:56.016 --> 00:42:00.447
The dignity of the individual, for me, is very, very important.

00:42:00.954 --> 00:42:04.864
Makes so much sense, and we know too it's like women getting the vote.

00:42:04.864 --> 00:42:09.144
There was a time when it was inconceivable that it would happen.

00:42:09.244 --> 00:42:10.347
Absolutely.

00:42:10.347 --> 00:42:11.981
That's a great example.

00:42:12.081 --> 00:42:14.280
Yes, we waited for everybody to agree.

00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:15.465
It would not have happened.

00:42:15.465 --> 00:42:17.074
It had to be passed in law first.

00:42:17.074 --> 00:42:20.384
And now, look, we take it completely for granted.

00:42:20.724 --> 00:42:20.905
Yes.

00:42:21.235 --> 00:42:24.204
I'd love to see a day when it's just an absolute given.

00:42:24.204 --> 00:42:26.898
We don't even have to think about it yeah.

00:42:26.898 --> 00:42:28.420
Some generation from now.

00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:30.282
We just wake up and it's a complete given.

00:42:30.842 --> 00:42:33.324
Yes, absolutely, that's so.

00:42:33.324 --> 00:42:33.846
It's funny.

00:42:33.846 --> 00:42:45.193
For years I used to say I hope I get a convention before I die, and now I'm saying I hope I get a decision to start hosting a convention before.

00:42:45.233 --> 00:42:46.016
I die Well.

00:42:46.016 --> 00:42:47.222
Thank you for this, frances.

00:42:47.222 --> 00:42:49.019
I'm so glad we had this conversation.

00:42:49.019 --> 00:42:58.056
There's so much more to talk about, but I'm very happy we talked about it and very grateful for your exceptional contribution in so many ways to the rights of all the people.

00:42:58.077 --> 00:42:59.023
Thank you very much.

00:42:59.304 --> 00:43:00.128
It's been a pleasure.