Vijay Naraidoo: "With a UN Convention for the rights of Older Persons comes dignity and respect, attacking ageism at its roots; and human rights will be a culture well embedded"

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Welcome.

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This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast.

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Elder Women, older Women and Grandmothers on the Move.

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What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series.

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Have you ever thought about how human rights plays an essential and meaningful role in our older age?

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Well, you're in the right place.

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You're listening to Age with Rights and Dignity 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world.

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These committed champions and advocates will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older Persons into being.

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For you and for me, no matter how old we are.

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Now Join the movement and raise your voice.

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Go to the Age Noble Human Rights Day 2024 blog to find out more that is A-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dot com and sign the global petition for the UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons.

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I'm also excited to introduce you to two wonderful guest interviewers, younger women who are committed to these issues and will be joining me in this series to interview some of our esteemed guests Faith Young and Kira Goenis.

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Thank you for joining us.

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Enjoy this special initiative, and my thanks to Margaret Young, the founder of Age Noble, for bringing this opportunity to us to hear from these important guests who promote the human rights and the dignity of older persons the world over.

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Today I'm speaking with Vijay Naraidu, the founding member of the Mauritian NGO DIMOIS Human Rights Indian Ocean, and an educator, public relations officer, human rights defender, formerly Secretary General of the Mauritius National Commission for UNESCO under the aegis of the Ministry of Education, formerly the Chief Operations Officer of the National Housing Development Company, vijay is an active leader in regional and international non-profit organizations, such as the Global Alliance for the Rights of Older People, sga, african and International Network on the Prevention of Elder Abuse.

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Hello, vijay, and welcome to Wisdom at Work podcast.

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It is a real pleasure and an honor to speak with you today.

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Hello Ilana, the pleasure is mine.

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Thank you very much.

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It's wonderful to have you and, as you know, this is part of a series of conversations with advocates and activists working on bringing to fruition this convention on the rights of older persons and exploring together the different dimensions of the work that's happening, what the contributions are of wonderful people like yourself who have been at this for a long time, and to help people understand and appreciate what's at stake, what are the issues, and so, vijay, it would be so interesting to hear from you.

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How did you come to this?

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Clearly, you've been doing it for many years, but what brought you to the realization of the transgression of, or the absence of, human rights in the fullness of their potential for older persons?

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I think I should start from my own background.

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I hail from a family of the working class, so we had a lot of challenges.

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Even as a child I could see my parents doing sometimes more than one job in order to make both ends meet.

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And I had a grandmother paternal grandmother whom I had always known to be an old person she died at the age of 96 actually and I could see her also at work in the formal sector.

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Then, when I grew up, I was already sensitized to the fate of older persons who had to work, even after what we call retirement age, at the age of 60.

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Now, at work, I was exposed with my own pupils coming from different backgrounds, you know, with my own pupils coming from different backgrounds, but still, you know, from the working class, because at the time the merchants were not that high income economy as we have today.

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Then, little by little, I changed, you know that, my sector of work until such time I came to work in the UNESCO section of the Ministry of Education.

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But here too, when you are in UNESCO, it of the Ministry of Education.

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But here too, when you are in UNESCO, it is about, you know, education, science, culture, how people you know find themselves or the challenges that they have to face inside these sectors.

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So, but side by side, my professional life had a social engagement, you know, in youth clubs, in agricultural youth clubs, in cooperatives, in trade union, which, at some time, I went around the country, young as I was, to talk to people about the advantages of a cooperative society, be it a store society, be it a credit union, and so on and so forth.

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Now when, in 2011, I left, I retired from the public sector, I met with my friends.

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They too, they were retiring, some were still at work, and we set to meet and discuss about human rights.

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One of our colleagues, who is presently the Director General of GIMOIA, l'illini Courant.

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He was himself a member or the leader of Amnesty International in Mauritius.

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So when Amnesty moved out of Berkshire, went to Madagascar, then there was a void, so we get into it.

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And then we discussed about different ways and means, a strategy.

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The first thing that we had to do was to conscientize people on the human rights.

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But what was the tactic?

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Inside the organization, it was creating commissions.

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Inside the organization, it was creating commissions, specialized commissions like Commission for the Rights of Children, commission for the Rights of Disabled People, commission for the Rights of Women, environment and Commission for the Rights of Older Persons.

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So they found in me, the, the one who would uh, lead that commission right with a team.

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You know, in a commission we have two or three persons because we have membership.

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If a commission is that big as an executive committee then it won't work.

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We need three, three dynamic people or four, to make research, to come with proposals and to define how we are going to, what to tell to the people.

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So right from there we came into contact with HelpAge International and onwards to Karog this is where I started getting, you know, imbibed inside the what we call this greater campaign.

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So shall we excuse me if I say I sometimes huh, it's not personal, it's a teamwork.

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Teamwork is how we got into doing things locally, then regionally and internationally, to answer your question.

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And so DIMOIS is.

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Let's talk about that for a little bit, because you alluded to it in terms of how that facilitated the work that you were doing once you retired from UNESCO.

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That you were doing once you retired from UNESCO, but DIMOIS is a human rights organization, then that was supposed to step in and fill the void that Amnesty had left behind.

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Was that the founding sort of thinking?

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Yeah, the fact that we had what we call an active past.

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We were all engaged in different sectors of social life, of public life.

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We were all engaged, so getting into it wasn't difficult, it was not a big challenge.

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No, it wasn't.

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So it was exposing ourselves, educating ourselves about human rights, because the challenges of the day, not only for older persons, for children, and then you know, we were close to understanding what the sustainable development goals are in terms of education for children, for youth, you know, for women and so on.

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So it wasn't a difficult task to understand, because we had senior people who had been, you know, militating for the government of Mauritius to sign, for example, the CEDAW, the Convention for the Rights of Women, the Convention for the Rights of Children, and so on and so forth.

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It wasn't difficult sort of organic evolution, but the natural political evolution that you're talking about, from understanding really the lived realities of the people with whom you were working and on whose behalf you were advocating, and really that's a natural, I think, evolution to working on the human rights, rather than looking at it as sort of a benign or a benevolent, friendly thing for a government to do to provide for its citizens one thing or another, but to see it actually as a right, as a fundamental human right that has an obligation.

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Yes, and the underlying message is that human beings are owners of their rights.

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Yes, and we endeavored to develop a locus standi.

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That is when government would ask us but who are you to speak on the right of people?

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Who are you Then?

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We'd say, by the way, we have registered Dimois as a legal entity, we are a political, we have got our own individual opinion politically, but we do not as a human rights organization.

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We do not at affiliate or not affiliated with any local political party, so we are independent.

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Therefore, whatever be the government in place, we do not have any qualmer discussing with central government or with the line ministries.

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By the way, the line ministry is a Minister of Social Security, whether it is for the rights of the disabled person or rights of older persons, and the other land ministry is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

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Yes, and then we work, of course, with the National Human Rights Commission.

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It is financially supported by government.

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Right, I mean, I love how you talk about it because it's really about the human family.

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Love how you talk about it because it's really about the human family.

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It's not about each group, each age group in its own sort of silo in its own moment, but but, yeah, continuum of rights along our lives.

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And I think it would be really interesting to hear from you, vijay, you know, what do you see as the gaps in promoting human rights, the protection of, but also the enjoyment of, human rights by older persons in Mauritius?

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Yeah, Mauritius, being it is highly developed, developing fast, but then we are getting people who are living older or longer, which is a world phenomenon.

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People are living longer.

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Women are living longer than men, and many of older people today are living alone because children have gone abroad or they haven't had partners in their life, or they have become widows or widowers or they have disability.

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So we should have special attention for these people.

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I'm focusing on these people for whom there are gaps, for example, their capacity to rent a house, even a social housing, you know enough financial support to meet with additional needs like food, quality food, renting a house, having access, leisure.

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So these are the gaps that I had in mind, amongst others, here.

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And I know that you have a particular concern, Vijay, about older persons' rights to an adequate standard of living.

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I wonder if you could elaborate on that in the work that's been happening in Mauritius.

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An adequate standard of living is a fundamental human right and is in Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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It encompasses access to adequate food, clothing, housing, healthcare and social services, ensuring individuals can live in dignity.

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For older people, this right is critical.

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They often face vulnerabilities due to declining health, financial instability and social isolation.

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In Mauritius, while significant strides have been made to support older people, such as the universal old age pension, which benefits approximately 231,000 older citizens, or 18% of the population, according to the latest statistics.

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Gaps still remain to fully upholding this right.

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Firstly, housing and living conditions for some older individuals are inadequate.

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Many live alone in deteriorating housing, with 10% of the households lacking basic amenities like proper sanitation or running water.

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Secondly, healthcare access is a major concern.

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While Mauritius has a robust public health system, all the people often struggle with long waiting times for specialized care and the cost of private health care remains prohibitive for me.

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A 2023 survey of the Minister of Health revealed that over 30 percent of older people delay or avoid seeking medical treatment due to affordability issues.

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Thirdly, social inclusion is lacking, despite the government and NGO efforts, such as the CEO, citizen associations and activities.

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Loneliness efforts affects 43% of all the others, as reported.

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Addressing this gap requires targeted policies such as improving housing conditions, enhancing healthcare affordability and access, and promoting intergenerational programs to reduce isolation.

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Ensuring an adequate standard of living for older people is not just a moral obligation, but a societal imperative of fostering dignity and equality in the country, and I know, vijay, that you have a deep commitment to ensuring that older persons are consulted, participating in these processes, and that you hold these multi-stakeholder meetings, and I wonder if you can tell us more about that.

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Yeah, whatever conventions, international conventions, governance or protocols that we, yeah, whatever conventions, international conventions, governance or protocols that we have, they're, all you know, academic interpretation, academic connotations for the masses, for the people.

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Now, right from the start, what we did?

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Go around identifying the different potential partners and stakeholders in the social landscape having to do with human rights.

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We identified people at the Ministry of Social Security.

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We made ourselves known at the National Human Rights Commission.

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We identified the Senior Citizens Council and the Merced Family Planning and Welfare Association, which is a human rights organization put up by government, by law.

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Now the host of other organizations like the FIAPA, the International Federation of Associations of Older Persons, and then we have got other NGOs.

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And then we link with the Mauritius Council of Social Services, which is an apex organization of NGOs in the country.

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Trade unions.

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We went around identifying all the senior citizens associations in the rural and urban localities and the women's association, which meet regularly, almost every week in the community development centers.

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We met with their leading persons.

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Then, little by little, what I did with my team, I went around outreaching the people in their community, in their locality, whether it's urban or rural, because for me the principle is that you meet the people at their convenience in a place where they can hear you, especially older persons, at a time which is convenient for them to come out to listen and to go home safely.

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So even the church, the Catholic Church, has invited us and other cultural organizations.

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So once we have done this, we have, through time for the past 10 years, going out again and again to the people.

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We have consolidated this approach by training, online training, human rights Eight modules, including one module on human rights of older persons, and then consolidated this online by in-presence presence, in person trading at the seat of our organization.

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At the same time, what I'm telling you for older persons has been in parallel, then for other persons, for other sectors of the population, for example, children and youth and others.

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Therefore, what we did, we have been writing, year after year, media articles in the press.

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We have been able to secure two pages in the best daily published every day.

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So every week, on Monday, we have two pages dedicated for GMA.

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I don't know how many articles I've been writing on why we should have a convention, why all the population should be interested in the rights of older persons, because we encourage intergenerational dialogue between the younger generation and the older generation.

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And then I've been on television several times and on the radio stations today, for example, on the International Day of Older Persons.

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We do not go and ask them do you want us to make a statement?

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No, today they solicit us.

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The TV comes to our office, you see, so we have secured the credibility and the local system die.

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By this I mean that we are legitimate.

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We are credible when you speak on behalf of people, of the population, with government.

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I should tell you that we have extrapolated what we have been doing in the region by our flyers, by our posters, by our meetings, what we have been doing, extrapolating in the islands of the southwest Indian Ocean.

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For example, I have been to the Kumaro, my colleagues have been to Madagascar, we have been in the Seychelles, in all these islands, in the Seychelles, in all these islands, because we have helped our fellow activists in these islands to put up Dimois entities over there, which means that today we have made a network of Dimois.

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So you see the resonance of what we are doing, not to mention what our engagement with NPR I mean it really is what needs engagement with NPR, with Garo, with Hypage.

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I mean, it really is what needs to happen, yes, which is building a movement, a momentum and a movement and a network that picks up steam but also that allows people to speak in their own voice about what it is they want to see happen.

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And to switch just a little bit, because you've talked about the region and I think it's important for people to hear from you to help us think through.

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You know there are already multiple human rights instruments, so it's not as if there aren't some existing attempts at really contending with and thinking about and deepening the conversation and the understanding of what older persons and older women's rights would look like and what they consist of, and so I've heard governments have been raising questions in the working group at the UN to say, why do we need a convention if we have these other instruments that are out there that can be used?

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So what do you say, vijay?

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Why do we need a whole convention on the rights of older persons when we have some mechanisms in place?

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Yeah, you're right.

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For example, you mentioned the original mechanism is the African Union Protocol for the Rights of Older Persons in Africa, which came into being as a protocol in 2016.

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Since then, in Mauritius, gimwa has been in the forefront to lobby with the government the only NGO to lobby with the government to sign and ratify the protocol.

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So, in May 2022, we had a meeting with the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Social Security, and the state of Mauritius signed the protocol.

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Since then, we have been asking for meetings, writing and so on, for them to ratify yes, as an African state, not only in solidarity, but to be faithful to our engagement I mean, speaking for Mauritius, the fact that this is an EU protocol.

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As a member state of the EU, I think our state, the state of Mauritius, has the duty to sign, yes, but to ratify it.

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But this, however, the protocol doesn't provide protection 100% for the rights of older persons.

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No, it is not sufficient.

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What we need is an international, legally binding instrument for the United Nations.

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The protocol is okay, but it's not sufficient.

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What we need is a convention.

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Why the convention?

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Because the convention will provide, you know, a comprehensive framework.

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It will be a binding instrument.

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The process is like this If I know, the UN will take the time that it will take to gather all the brains around the table to start writing a draft.

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I know it will take the time that it will take writing a draft.

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I know the time that it will take.

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But then the convention will come as a motion.

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Our respective countries will inform the Separatist Journal of its intention to sign and then ratify that convention.

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We'll have to domesticate it in our constitution of Mauritius like any other country.

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Once it is domesticated, that is approved by the government, the cabinet or even the opposition will support it, because the state is not a party.

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Now, once it's domesticated, it will be for the duty of all stakeholders government mainly, the National Human Rights Commission, the private sector, civil society, ngos.

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We can see whether the state is applying whatever it has signed and ratified.

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You know, you have the independent expert or the secretary general, or you have independent expert to come and see in the country what is taking place.

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Ngos, they are like watchdogs, they will see what is happening in the country, what is taking place.

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Ngos, they are like watchdogs, they will see what is happening in the country.

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So once it is binding, the government is bound to see that the clauses, the conditions, the articles of the convention are respected and if not, a shadow report from an NGO respectable NGO will do the needful.

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Yes, and those shadow reports are so powerful, just so people understand that there are committees that then are appointed government appointees who oversee these reports from the countries.

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When you ratify a convention, you have to come and report on how you're doing and implementing the convention, and these shadow reports come from civil society sometimes academic institutions as well, that give another lens on how are things really going for in their view, in the view of those who are advocates, how is implementation really going?

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And before we end, vijay, I want to think about that with you and hear from you about this that let's imagine down the road that a convention finally exists.

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When you really think down the road, all of the advocacy you've been doing and the work you've been doing and what you're hearing from older people as you speak to them in communities what starts to change?

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Yeah, I'll not say it in many words Dignity, dignity, respect, attacking ageism at its root.

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Human rights will become a culture well embedded, because we shall see to it that human rights become an academic subject, informally and informally, right from the primary school.

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Primary school you can do sketch, you can do right of drama.

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I've been a teacher.

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I know that, how to teach children, to convey to the children human rights and, in particular, if you want, the rights of older people.

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From there the message will go from the teacher to the students and to the parents.

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There will be a kind of feedback and then, in the long run, we shall have it.

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You know, I'm not dreaming, but I think it is possible to have a society where human rights of every segment of the population is respected.

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So dignity is one respect, and then the personality of each person, of each human being, because each human being is the owner of their rights, not only beneficiaries.

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I love that way of understanding it, because we're not thinking of people as supplicants, you know, asking for help or as beneficiaries, but fundamentally the right of every person to enjoy their rights, have adequate access to health care and housing at any, any age, at all ages.

00:26:31.059 --> 00:26:38.459
But in particular it seems like it's almost the last bastion of invisibility or of neglect around older persons.

00:26:38.459 --> 00:26:41.911
To me it's confounding because we're all headed in that direction.

00:26:41.911 --> 00:26:47.569
If we're lucky and we live long, then we will end up there ourselves yeah, you know, being conscious of this invisibility or neglect.

00:26:47.670 --> 00:26:53.000
being conscious of this invisibility or neglect, being conscious of this.

00:26:53.000 --> 00:27:02.939
Last month, that was in August, we conducted a survey to determine the degree older people are victims of ageism.

00:27:02.939 --> 00:27:07.757
We have concluded the survey, but we have not yet started analysing the data.

00:27:07.757 --> 00:27:11.892
So, as you say, yes, older people are invisible.

00:27:11.892 --> 00:27:15.338
Sometimes they have no say, even in the family circle.

00:27:15.338 --> 00:27:20.656
They're subjected to violence, neglect, abuse, even in Mauritius.

00:27:20.656 --> 00:27:26.958
And this happens in all social classes, not only in the working class, in all classes.

00:27:26.958 --> 00:27:32.752
These older people do not want to go and report because they say their children are professionals.

00:27:32.752 --> 00:27:35.352
You know, they don't want to shame the children.

00:27:35.352 --> 00:27:36.333
This is what is happening.

00:27:36.373 --> 00:27:53.853
But then, our duty as an NGO, we have to address this problem of ageism, sensitize people on it, because you know, we have got legislation, the Elderly Protection Act of 2005, where we have elderly watch.

00:27:53.853 --> 00:28:06.653
So we take all these ingredients, we prepare paper, then when we go to the people, we talk to them about this, we kind of, as we say in French, vulgariser, making things simple for them to understand.

00:28:06.653 --> 00:28:12.753
So it's not, as I say, only academic, to give ourselves a kind of good conscience.

00:28:12.753 --> 00:28:15.071
We register, we record from them.

00:28:15.071 --> 00:28:16.728
We note what they say.

00:28:16.728 --> 00:28:21.178
What are their queries, their issues, their challenges.

00:28:21.178 --> 00:28:24.031
Then how do you transfer this?

00:28:24.684 --> 00:28:35.565
You know, for example, I have been to Geneva in 2019, thanks to Garop In 2019, where I had two minutes to say the importance of the convention.

00:28:35.565 --> 00:28:57.077
So I go with a message and then, when we publish, every week, whenever we have an article on all the persons rights, on our campaign, I mail all my correspondence across the world, from Nepal to Argentina, from Europe to any country in Africa.

00:28:57.077 --> 00:28:58.769
It's a continuum.

00:28:58.769 --> 00:29:00.354
It's a continuum.

00:29:00.354 --> 00:29:02.984
So we have to put in all my energy.

00:29:02.984 --> 00:29:06.134
I think we are on a noble way.

00:29:06.134 --> 00:29:13.675
What we are doing is noble and it is humanity that we are addressing.

00:29:13.675 --> 00:29:18.728
So we have come a long way, from cave dwelling to new towns.

00:29:18.728 --> 00:29:23.738
We have come a long way from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

00:29:23.738 --> 00:29:25.467
It's a declaration.

00:29:25.467 --> 00:29:30.238
The time has come for conventions, as we have been saying it.

00:29:30.238 --> 00:29:34.007
So time has come for a convention for the rights of older persons.

00:29:34.848 --> 00:29:36.231
Vijay, thank you so much.

00:29:36.231 --> 00:29:42.797
It's been such a pleasure to speak with you today and thank you for all you do, and all you will continue to do, for the rights of older persons.

00:29:43.265 --> 00:29:44.048
Thank you very much.

00:29:44.048 --> 00:29:45.515
Pleasure talking to you.